Legislature(2003 - 2004)

05/08/2003 03:45 PM House JUD

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE JUDICIARY STANDING COMMITTEE                                                                             
                          May 8, 2003                                                                                           
                           3:45 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Lesil McGuire, Chair                                                                                             
Representative Tom Anderson, Vice Chair                                                                                         
Representative Jim Holm                                                                                                         
Representative Dan Ogg                                                                                                          
Representative Ralph Samuels                                                                                                    
Representative Les Gara                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Representative Max Gruenberg                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 20                                                                                                   
Proposing amendments to  the Constitution of the  State of Alaska                                                               
repealing the prohibition on dedicated funds.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED CSHJR 20(JUD) OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 244                                                                                                              
"An Act relating  to the Code of Criminal  Procedure; relating to                                                               
defenses,  affirmative defenses,  and  justifications to  certain                                                               
criminal  acts; relating  to rights  of  prisoners after  arrest;                                                               
relating  to  discovery,  immunity from  prosecution,  notice  of                                                               
defenses,  admissibility  of  certain   evidence,  and  right  to                                                               
representation in  criminal proceedings; relating  to sentencing,                                                               
probation,  and discretionary  parole; amending  Rule 16,  Alaska                                                               
Rules of  Criminal Procedure, and  Rules 404, 412, 609,  and 803,                                                               
Alaska Rules of Evidence; and providing for an effective date."                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 4                                                                                                    
Proposing  an  amendment to  the  Constitution  of the  State  of                                                               
Alaska relating to the duration of a regular session.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     - SCHEDULED BUT NOT HEARD                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 157                                                                                                              
"An  Act  eliminating  the   Alaska  Public  Offices  Commission;                                                               
transferring  campaign, public  official, and  lobbying financial                                                               
disclosure record-keeping  duties to  the division  of elections;                                                               
relating   to  reports,   summaries,   and  documents   regarding                                                               
campaign,  public official,  and  lobbying financial  disclosure;                                                               
providing  for  enforcement  by the  Department  of  Law;  making                                                               
conforming statutory  amendments; and providing for  an effective                                                               
date."                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE JOINT RESOLUTION NO. 9                                                                                                    
Proposing amendments to  the Constitution of the  State of Alaska                                                               
relating to an appropriation limit and a spending limit.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     - BILL HEARING POSTPONED                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HJR 20                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE:REPEALING PROHIBITION ON DEDICATED FUNDS                                                                            
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S)MASEK                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date   Jrn-Page                     Action                                                                                  
03/28/03     0671       (H)        READ THE FIRST TIME -                                                                        
                                   REFERRALS                                                                                    
03/28/03     0671       (H)        JUD, FIN                                                                                     
05/02/03                (H)        JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
05/02/03                (H)        Bill Hearing Postponed to 5/5                                                                
05/05/03                (H)        JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
05/05/03                (H)        Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                      
05/06/03                (H)        JUD AT 5:30 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
05/06/03                (H)        -- Meeting Canceled --                                                                       
05/07/03                (H)        JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
05/07/03                (H)        Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                      
05/08/03                (H)        JUD AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 244                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE:CRIMINAL LAW/SENTENCING/PROBATION/PAROLE                                                                            
SPONSOR(S): RLS BY REQUEST OF THE GOVERNOR                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date   Jrn-Page                     Action                                                                                  
04/04/03     0770       (H)        READ THE FIRST TIME -                                                                        
                                   REFERRALS                                                                                    
04/04/03     0770       (H)        JUD, FIN                                                                                     
04/04/03     0771       (H)        FN1: ZERO(LAW)                                                                               
04/04/03     0771       (H)        FN2: (COR)                                                                                   
04/04/03     0771       (H)        GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER                                                                
04/14/03                (H)        JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
04/14/03                (H)        Heard & Held                                                                                 
                                   MINUTE(JUD)                                                                                  
04/25/03                (H)        JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
04/25/03                (H)        <Bill Hearing Postponed>                                                                     
05/07/03                (H)        JUD AT 1:00 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
05/07/03                (H)        Scheduled But Not Heard                                                                      
05/08/03                (H)        JUD AT 3:30 PM CAPITOL 120                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
ERIC MUSSER, Staff                                                                                                              
to Representative Beverly Masek                                                                                                 
Alaska State Legislature                                                                                                        
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION   STATEMENT:      Presented   HJR  20   on   behalf   of                                                               
Representative Masek, sponsor.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
LAUREE HUGONIN, Executive Director                                                                                              
Alaska Network on Domestic Violence & Sexual Assault (ANDVSA)                                                                   
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION  STATEMENT:   During  discussion  HB  244, testified  in                                                               
support  of Sections  7 and  14; expressed  hope that  Section 26                                                               
will be  helpful; and  expressed concern  with parts  of Sections                                                               
[1-5] and with Sections 16.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JEFFREY DUNCAN                                                                                                                  
Big Lake, Alaska                                                                                                                
POSITION  STATEMENT:   During  discussion  of  HB 244,  expressed                                                               
dislike for  Sections [1-5] and some  of the terms in  Section 7,                                                               
and indicated approval of Sections 6, 8, and 26.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CAS GADOMSKI                                                                                                                    
Wasilla, Alaska                                                                                                                 
POSITION STATEMENT:   During discussion of HB 244,  said that his                                                               
feelings paralleled  those of Mr.  Duncan, and  expressed concern                                                               
with Section 1.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
JOSHUA P. FINK                                                                                                                  
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:   During  discussion of  HB 244,  relayed his                                                               
concerns with the bill in  general and specifically with Sections                                                               
[1-5], 7, and 12, and responded to questions.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
JAMES H. McCOMAS, Attorney at Law (of counsel)                                                                                  
Friedman, Rubin & White                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:   During  discussion of  HB 244,  relayed his                                                               
concerns with the bill in  general and specifically with Sections                                                               
7, 12, 21, and 26, and responded to a comment.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
BARBARA BRINK, Director                                                                                                         
Public Defender Agency (PDA)                                                                                                    
Department of Administration                                                                                                    
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:   During  discussion of  HB 244,  relayed her                                                               
concerns regarding the bill and responded to questions.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
DEAN J. GUANELI, Chief Assistant Attorney General                                                                               
Legal Services Section-Juneau                                                                                                   
Criminal Division                                                                                                               
Department of Law (DOL)                                                                                                         
Juneau, Alaska                                                                                                                  
POSITION STATEMENT:   Testified  on behalf of  the administration                                                               
in support of HB 244 and responded to questions.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-55, SIDE A                                                                                                            
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  LESIL   McGUIRE  called   the  House   Judiciary  Standing                                                             
Committee  meeting  to  order  at   3:45  p.m.    Representatives                                                               
McGuire, Anderson,  Ogg, Samuels,  and Gara  were present  at the                                                               
call to  order.  Representative  Holm arrived as the  meeting was                                                               
in progress.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HJR 20 - REPEALING PROHIBITION ON DEDICATED FUNDS                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 0050                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  announced that the  first order of  business would                                                               
be HOUSE  JOINT RESOLUTION  NO. 20,  Proposing amendments  to the                                                               
Constitution of the State of  Alaska repealing the prohibition on                                                               
dedicated funds.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0058                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
ERIC MUSSER, Staff to Representative  Beverly Masek, Alaska State                                                               
Legislature,  on behalf  of Representative  Masek, sponsor,  said                                                               
that HJR 20 was introduced to  ask the voting public to support a                                                               
change  in   Article  IX,   Section  7,   of  the   Alaska  State                                                               
Constitution.   Specifically, if  adopted by the  legislature and                                                               
passed  by  the electorate  at  the  next general  election,  the                                                               
amendment  to the  Alaska State  Constitution  would require  all                                                               
motor fuel taxes  generated through the sale of  motor fuels only                                                               
to  be  placed  in  a constitutionally  protected  fund  for  the                                                               
express purpose of maintaining Alaska's roads and highways.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MUSSER noted  that the  Alaska State  Constitution prohibits                                                               
dedicated  funds  except  for the  Alaska  permanent  fund,  when                                                               
required  to receive  federal funds,  or for  dedicated funds  in                                                               
existence prior  to the adoption  of the constitution.   Amending                                                               
Alaska's constitution  should not be taken  lightly, he remarked,                                                               
and  is considered  with great  trepidation.   However, as  state                                                               
revenues continue to decline, the  sponsor believes that Alaskans                                                               
would  be  more  amenable  to   contributing  to  the  effort  of                                                               
maintaining  the  road and  highway  infrastructure  if they  had                                                               
assurances that  the motor  fuel taxes  levied were  utilized for                                                               
that express purpose, he relayed.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MUSSER  said  that  motor  fuel  taxes  in  all  states  are                                                               
dedicated in some  fashion for road and highway  maintenance.  In                                                               
Alaska, motor  fuel taxes  are currently  deposited in  a special                                                               
highway-fuel-tax account within the general  fund (GF).  However,                                                               
the legislature  may appropriate these funds  for other purposes,                                                               
and  the sponsor  feels  that such  would  happen with  increased                                                               
motor  fuel  taxes,  he  additionally  relayed.    He  asked  the                                                               
committee to support the proposed committee substitute (CS).                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0239                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  moved to  adopt the  proposed CS  for HJR
20,   Version  23-LS0889\D,   Kurtz,   4/2/03,   as  amended   by                                                               
handwritten  changes,  as  the  work   draft.    There  being  no                                                               
objection, Version D, as amended, was before the committee.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE, after  ascertaining that  no one  else wished  to                                                               
testify on HJR 20, closed public testimony.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS asked:   "How  much do  we spend  in road                                                               
dollars now, as opposed to what  we collect?  Is it a moneymaker,                                                               
above and beyond?"                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. MUSSER replied:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Presently, no.   Actually, there's serious deficiencies                                                                    
     to  the  tune   of  ...  $30  million,   based  on  the                                                                    
     Department   of  Transportation's   annual  maintenance                                                                    
     needs versus what  we fund currently.   As submitted in                                                                    
     the governor's  bill ... increasing the  ... fuels tax,                                                                    
     the  estimated revenue  ...  would  generate about  $69                                                                    
     million, about $9 million over  what the department had                                                                    
     estimated  were the  annual maintenance  needs.   And I                                                                    
     understand an  amendment was made in  the House Finance                                                                    
     Committee that reduced that ... anticipated revenue.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE   asked,  "Philosophically,  what  would   be  the                                                               
rational for  dedicating funds in this  area when we don't  do it                                                               
for  many other  well-deserving areas  such as  public safety  or                                                               
education?"                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MUSSER replied:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     The  sponsor  feels  that  ...   that  is  a  very  ...                                                                    
     philosophical  and difficult  issue.   Typically, motor                                                                    
     fuel taxes are designed for  that purpose.  And in fact                                                                    
     ...,  currently, the  revenue  does go  into a  highway                                                                    
     revenue fund  within the GF and  typically allocated to                                                                    
     the  department  to  meet  our   needs.    But  it's  a                                                                    
     substantial change;  ... she  feels that because  it is                                                                    
     more than a doubling of  tax receipts ... for that, and                                                                    
     because of  the volume of traveling  between the valley                                                                    
     and  Anchorage and  the commuters  and the  amount that                                                                    
     would  be  paid,  that  the  public  should  have  some                                                                    
     assurances that that's what it's  going to be used for,                                                                    
     that the  legislature would not  come in  and determine                                                                    
     that other needs  may exist and want to  short fund our                                                                    
     highway maintenance program.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 0502                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE asked  why not do it for alcohol  or tobacco taxes,                                                               
so that those  user fees are dedicated  specifically for purposes                                                               
of cessation  or treatment  of health problems  that stem  out of                                                               
those substances?                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. MUSSER replied:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     That question  was raised and even  discussed, and that                                                                    
     was ... an example.  As  you know, when the tobacco tax                                                                    
     was  substantially increased  just  a  couple of  years                                                                    
     ago, during  that debate and adoption  of the increase,                                                                    
     a percentage ... [of] about  20-22 percent or so was to                                                                    
     be expressly  utilized for  tobacco-cessation programs,                                                                    
     for  ... youth  education  and efforts,  and what  have                                                                    
     you.  And, obviously, there  are those within the anti-                                                                    
     tobacco  area that  feel that  the  legislature is  not                                                                    
     living up to an agreement,  which led to the support of                                                                    
     that increase.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     And the same  was said just last year  with the alcohol                                                                    
     tax  increase, that  levels of  funding would  be used.                                                                    
     ... And  that sort  of gets, really,  to the  issue ...                                                                    
     [of] this  debate:  ... should  perhaps the legislature                                                                    
     consider changing  ... prior  ... policy  ... decisions                                                                    
     and  say,   "Yes,  we  want  to   ensure  that  highway                                                                    
     maintenance (indisc.)  are met, and ...  we're going to                                                                    
     do  this."    And  that  really is  the  heart  of  the                                                                    
     question.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE ANDERSON offered his  belief that the Alaska State                                                               
Constitution isn't so  sacred that it can't be changed.   He said                                                               
he  does not  know why  funds  aren't dedicated;  he indicated  a                                                               
desire  to  have dedicated  funds,  and  relayed that  he'd  been                                                               
opposed to the  increase in alcohol tax because it  goes into the                                                               
"pot" and not to help related programs.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MUSSER, in  response to  questions, relayed  that 39  states                                                               
currently  expressly  dedicate  motor fuel  receipts  to  highway                                                               
maintenance  and  operation, and  that  all  50 states  have  the                                                               
intent to dedicate  those funds.  He noted that  the delegates to                                                               
the constitutional  convention extensively debated the  issue [of                                                               
dedicated funds], and  looked at Texas, which at the  time had 90                                                               
percent of  its revenue dedicated,  as an example.   The question                                                               
is whether  to begin dedicating  funds, or to continue  with what                                                               
the framers  of the constitution  intended, that  the legislature                                                               
have the flexibility  to "make the annualized policy  calls."  He                                                               
relayed   that  the   sponsor  feels   very  strongly   that  the                                                               
constitution should be amended for this particular purpose.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0825                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS, after noting  that some departments don't                                                               
generate  revenue  sufficient  to  meet their  needs,  asked  Mr.                                                               
Musser  whether he  thought that  other  departments should  have                                                               
their revenues dedicated.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MUSSER said  he  could not  speak for  the  sponsor on  that                                                               
issue,  which, he  added, is  at  the heart  of the  debate.   He                                                               
remarked,  however,  that it  appears  as  though, to  date,  the                                                               
legislature has  felt that  funds should  not be  dedicated, that                                                               
there is a greater diversity of needs that warrant allocation of                                                                
funds.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA said that this issue raises a concern:                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     That  there's some  programs where  there's a  parallel                                                                    
     tax, and we  can say, "Okay, well let's put  all of the                                                                    
     revenue  from  that area  into  these  programs."   But                                                                    
     there are  some programs where there's  no relevant tax                                                                    
     - no  relevant source  of money. ...  So, let's  say we                                                                    
     dedicate  all  motor fuel  money  to  highways and  all                                                                    
     cigarette tax  money to  health care,  ... but  then we                                                                    
     have  all  these other  unfunded  things  like ...  the                                                                    
     hiring  of  social  workers  and  foster  care  or  the                                                                    
     funding of schools.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     ...  Should  we  not  be concerned  that  if  we  start                                                                    
     dedicating  money  to  specific  programs,  not  enough                                                                    
     money  will  be  left  for the  areas  where  we  don't                                                                    
     dedicate?  I think that  was largely the concern of the                                                                    
     [framers] when  they said, "Look, in  Texas, 90 percent                                                                    
     of their  money is dedicated;  with the ten  percent of                                                                    
     the   money  that's   left,  [they]   don't  have   the                                                                    
     discretion  to   fund  all   the  things   that  aren't                                                                    
     dedicated."  ...  What  are  your  thoughts  [on  these                                                                    
     points]?                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. MUSSER replied:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Again, I  can only come  back to, "That's the  heart of                                                                    
     the debate."  Our [framers]  ... felt expressly that it                                                                    
     would   be  poor   public  policy   to  hamstring   the                                                                    
     legislature's  authority  to  allocate  or  appropriate                                                                    
     funds   deemed   appropriate    by   the   legislature.                                                                    
     Dedicating  this  revenue   takes  that  authority  and                                                                    
     decision-making  ability away  from  this  body. ...  I                                                                    
     can't speak to whether that's  right or wrong; ... that                                                                    
     is certainly up to the committee ... to look at that.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1100                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked whether the funds HJR 20 proposes to                                                                  
dedicate would also be spent on road construction.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. MUSSER said the funds would only be for "maintenance and                                                                    
operation."                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GARA,  remarking  that the  legislature  wouldn't                                                               
want  to dedicate  more  money  than is  spent  for a  particular                                                               
purpose, asked whether any calculations  have been done regarding                                                               
the estimated  revenues from the governor's  proposed increase in                                                               
motor fuel  taxes and  the estimated  spending for  operation and                                                               
maintenance.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  MUSSER  reiterated  that  the estimate  is  $69  million  in                                                               
revenue and $60  million in operation and maintenance  costs.  He                                                               
suggested that the legislature could  decide to reduce the tax so                                                               
as not to have a surplus in a dedicated fund.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  OGG  asked  about  taxation of  marine  fuel  and                                                               
aviation fuel.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. MUSSER  said that including  those taxes was  considered, but                                                               
[the sponsor]  decided against doing  so.  He mentioned  that the                                                               
marine  fuel tax  account  was meant  to  augment marine  highway                                                               
operations, but that  the sponsor would be  amenable to including                                                               
"all consumptive fuel taxes ... except aviation."                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS noted  that there  are a  lot of  federal                                                               
guidelines regarding  what can and  cannot be done  with aviation                                                               
[fuel] taxes.   In addition, if a local  community taxes aviation                                                               
fuel, the  taxes must  be spent on  its municipal  airport rather                                                               
than a  state-owned airport.   On  the issue  of whether  to take                                                               
away the  legislature's authority  to appropriate funds  from the                                                               
motor fuel  tax account,  he indicated that  if the  oil revenues                                                               
continue  to  decline,  the  legislature  might  have  to  choose                                                               
between funding  schools or  fixing roads.   He  pondered whether                                                               
creating a  dedicated fund as  proposed by  HJR 20 would  be good                                                               
public policy.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1440                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. MUSSER  said that  it is because  of declining  revenues that                                                               
the  sponsor  feels  it  is  important  for  the  legislature  to                                                               
consider the  express use  of these funds  for the  operation and                                                               
maintenance  of  highways  and  roads,  which  are  used  by  all                                                               
Alaskans.    In   response  to  a  question,   he  indicated  his                                                               
understanding that the  funds specified in HJR 20  would not used                                                               
for capital costs.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE suggested that such  would be a detriment, and that                                                               
there  ought to  at  least  be some  leeway  to  spend funds  for                                                               
capital costs.   Notwithstanding  that point, she  indicated that                                                               
she would support advancing the legislation from committee                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1522                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  ANDERSON  moved to  report  the  CS for  HJR  20,                                                               
Version  23-LS0889\D, Kurtz,  4/2/03, as  amended by  handwritten                                                               
changes,  out of  committee with  individual recommendations  and                                                               
the accompanying  fiscal note.   There being no  objection, CSHJR
20(JUD)   was  reported   from  the   House  Judiciary   Standing                                                               
Committee.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
The committee took an at-ease from 4:14 p.m. to 4:15 p.m.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
HB 244 - CRIMINAL LAW/SENTENCING/PROBATION/PAROLE                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1582                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  announced that the  final order of  business would                                                               
be HOUSE BILL  NO. 244, "An Act relating to  the Code of Criminal                                                               
Procedure;  relating  to   defenses,  affirmative  defenses,  and                                                               
justifications to  certain criminal  acts; relating to  rights of                                                               
prisoners  after arrest;  relating  to  discovery, immunity  from                                                               
prosecution,  notice   of  defenses,  admissibility   of  certain                                                               
evidence, and  right to  representation in  criminal proceedings;                                                               
relating  to  sentencing,  probation, and  discretionary  parole;                                                               
amending Rule 16,  Alaska Rules of Criminal  Procedure, and Rules                                                               
404, 412, 609,  and 803, Alaska Rules of  Evidence; and providing                                                               
for an effective date."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE  noted  that  amendments  to  HB  244  were  being                                                               
drafted, and  indicated that the  committee would  be considering                                                               
the deletion of the "affirmative  defense" provisions.  She asked                                                               
that folks  testifying specify which  sections of the  bill their                                                               
comments pertain to.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1690                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
LAUREE HUGONIN,  Executive Director,  Alaska Network  on Domestic                                                               
Violence  &  Sexual  Assault  (ANDVSA),   said  that  the  ANDVSA                                                               
supports Sections  7 and  14.  She  elaborated, "Section  7 talks                                                               
about admissibility of prior convictions;  Section 14 talks about                                                               
consecutive terms of  imprisonment if you have,  under a separate                                                               
judgment, any term  of imprisonment imposed in  a later judgment,                                                               
amended judgment,  or probation revocation."   She said  that the                                                               
ANDVSA  has   concerns  with  some  parts   of  the  self-defense                                                               
sections,  Sections  1-5,  and   would  support  their  deletion.                                                               
Additionally,  the ANDVSA  has concerns  with  Section 16,  which                                                               
places into statute  a mitigator in sexual assault  cases; if the                                                               
person  were  to  "plead"  within  30  days,  there  would  be  a                                                               
statutory mitigator to  the sentence merely for owning  up to the                                                               
crime.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. HUGONIN  said that regardless  of the fact that  in practice,                                                               
the  latter  is  currently  being   treated  as  a  non-statutory                                                               
mitigator, and  that Section  16 is merely  an attempt  to reduce                                                               
the  time during  which this  mitigator might  be available,  the                                                               
ANDVSA still  has concerns  about having  this mitigator  at all.                                                               
To elaborate, she offered the following example:                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     [In]  a  recent  [sentence]  that was  handed  down  in                                                                    
     April, a person was  charged originally with two counts                                                                    
     of  sexual assault  in  the third  degree,  which is  a                                                                    
     felony; he  plead no contest  to one  misdemeanor count                                                                    
     of attempted  sexual assault in  the third  degree, and                                                                    
     his sentence was  365 days in jail  with 275 suspended.                                                                    
     And  if you  read  the facts  in the  case,  it was  an                                                                    
     egregious sexual  assault.   So it  seems like,  in our                                                                    
     experience in the field, that  something that should be                                                                    
     charged as a  sexual assault in the  first degree often                                                                    
     ends up being a much  lesser count, and so the sentence                                                                    
     is reduced accordingly.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MS. HUGONIN  then turned to Section  26 and said that  the ANDVSA                                                               
is  hopeful  that this  provision  will  be helpful;  Section  26                                                               
broadens the timeframe in which  something could be considered an                                                               
"excited utterance" for  the purpose of prosecuting  the crime of                                                               
domestic  violence.   In response  to a  question, she  indicated                                                               
that the ANDVSA  has no opinion on the sections  of the bill that                                                               
she has not specifically mentioned.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 1884                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JEFFREY  DUNCAN  said that  as  a  private citizen,  he  dislikes                                                               
Sections [1-5].   He remarked  that Section  6 looks like  a good                                                               
provision, but that  he dislikes some of the  terminology used in                                                               
Section 7,  particularly that which  refers to a  jury consisting                                                               
of six  members.  Section  8 looks  real good, he  opined, adding                                                               
that he also  likes Section 26 because he  believes that domestic                                                               
violence needs to be reported.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 1961                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CAS GADOMSKI, after relaying that his feelings on HB 244                                                                        
parallel those of Mr. Duncan, said that he is a private citizen                                                                 
and a retired police officer.  He then went on to say:                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Looking at the sectional analysis  of all this, my main                                                                    
     concern, as far  as what I don't like,  lies in Section                                                                    
     1.  This section would  change "heat of passion" from a                                                                    
     defense  that   the  state   must  disprove   beyond  a                                                                    
     reasonable  doubt to  an affirmative  defense that  the                                                                    
     defendant must prove by  preponderance of the evidence.                                                                    
     That in itself gives me a  problem, and I see no reason                                                                    
     for it.  I feel it's wrong,  and I would like to see it                                                                    
     struck; I feel  it's totally wrong. ...  The entire [HB
     244] is  fairly complex.   I wouldn't  be brokenhearted                                                                    
     to see the entire bill  struck, but my main problem, as                                                                    
     far as  what is left, is  here in Section 1  - the heat                                                                    
     of passion [for] a defense.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     There's been  rumors that [it]  ... was  introduced [at                                                                    
     the] urging of prosecutors  to address gang situations.                                                                    
     But  it doesn't  say that  [anywhere] in  the bill;  it                                                                    
     doesn't  refer  to,  quote,  "gang  members"  or  "gang                                                                    
     situations."    If  one  is  carrying  his  pistol  and                                                                    
     suddenly  is confronted  with a  problem  that he  must                                                                    
     handle,  well, there  he finds  himself in  a situation                                                                    
     where he has to defend  himself, but he doesn't know in                                                                    
     advance  that that's  going to  happen.   One does  not                                                                    
     make an  appointment for an  emergency.  And so  it's a                                                                    
     very complex and troublesome thing  here.  I don't like                                                                    
     it at all.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE mentioned that there is a proposed amendment to                                                                   
delete that section of the bill.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 2103                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JOSHUA P. FINK stated that although he is an assistant public                                                                   
defender with the Public Defender Agency (PDA), he would be                                                                     
testifying on his own behalf.  He said:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Generally, this legislation is  a broad and unwarranted                                                                    
     attack on  citizens' rights.   And they're  rights that                                                                    
     we've cherished  for centuries; their history  with our                                                                    
     jurisprudence  goes  way   back,  from  the  beginning.                                                                    
     We're  talking  about  the  right  to  self-defense;  I                                                                    
     understand you've addressed that,  and I'm thankful for                                                                    
     that.   We  also have  the right  to not  be forced  to                                                                    
     testify  against  yourself   or  incriminate  yourself.                                                                    
     This bill really empowers government  at the expense of                                                                    
     individual  rights  -  and  I  don't  think  criminals'                                                                    
     rights, because  these are rights  that protect  all of                                                                    
     us.   I  mean, you  are  ... presumed  innocent in  our                                                                    
     judicial criminal-justice system,  and these are rights                                                                    
     that we all enjoy.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     So  it  actually,  frankly,   surprises  me  that  this                                                                    
     legislation was  proposed by a  conservative Republican                                                                    
     governor, the governor who I  supported and continue to                                                                    
     support  but  [who],  I'm   convinced,  was  not  fully                                                                    
     briefed  or  staffed  on this  legislation.    I  don't                                                                    
     believe  people  that   share  conservative  philosophy                                                                    
     about  government's role  and  individual rights  could                                                                    
     support this  legislation.  Having  said that,  I think                                                                    
     that this  bill needs to be  thoroughly worked through,                                                                    
     ...  thoughtfully  considered   and  debated,  and  I'm                                                                    
     concerned that  there is  not enough  time left  in the                                                                    
     waning days of the  session to adequately address these                                                                    
     substantial changes in the law this bill proposes. ...                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK sought confirmation that there is a proposed amendment                                                                 
that would delete Section 4.  He then went on to say:                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     On Section  7 - the admissibility  of prior convictions                                                                    
     - my concern there, in a  general way:  ... juries will                                                                    
     convict based on someone's  prior history regardless of                                                                    
     the  evidence  before  them  on  the  crime  for  which                                                                    
     they're  [at] trial.    It's  propensity evidence,  and                                                                    
     almost  all  jurisdictions  in the  United  States  set                                                                    
     limits  on  when priors  can  come  in and  under  what                                                                    
     circumstances  - very  strict limits  - because  it has                                                                    
     been shown, time  and time again, ...  [when] the state                                                                    
     [has]  no  evidence  against  an  individual,  you  can                                                                    
     produce priors ... [and] the trial is over. ...                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 2269                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     You've  denied  that individual  a  fair  trial -  he's                                                                    
     going to be convicted on his  priors.  And I would just                                                                    
     caution  the committee,  and look  into changes  to the                                                                    
     law which  allow, essentially, prior bad  acts that are                                                                    
     going to  put the defendant in  very unfavorable light,                                                                    
     that  the  committee  think  about  that;  that  really                                                                    
     undercuts, in  a very fundamental way,  the fairness of                                                                    
     the  trial.     And   there  are  reasons   that  every                                                                    
     jurisdiction,  including ours,  has very  strict limits                                                                    
     on when  that can come  in - when prior  convictions or                                                                    
     prior  bad acts  can  come in.   And  I  would ask  the                                                                    
     committee  to take  a  hard look  at  this section  and                                                                    
     really think  about whether [it detracts]  ... from the                                                                    
     integrity of  our judicial system, knowing  we could be                                                                    
     getting  convictions on  lots  of people  based on  old                                                                    
     conduct  that  has  nothing  to  do  with  the  current                                                                    
     offense as charged.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK, turning to Section 12, continued:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     On Section  12, dealing with the  Fifth Amendment, this                                                                    
     section  essentially eviscerates  -  guts  - the  Fifth                                                                    
     Amendment.  I don't  think it will stand constitutional                                                                    
     scrutiny.  ... The  Fifth Amendment,  the right  not to                                                                    
     testify  against  yourself  dates  back  to  the  Magna                                                                    
     Charta.  And the reason  they put it, initially, in the                                                                    
     Magna Charta  - and we have  kept it in common  law ...                                                                    
     statutory  law, [and]  constitutional  law  since -  is                                                                    
     because the  government used to  have this  nasty habit                                                                    
     of getting confessions out of  people through less than                                                                    
     legitimate  means:   (indisc.) torture,  psychological-                                                                    
     type methods.  People  were falsely confessing.  That's                                                                    
     where the right to ... not self incriminate came from.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     This  section  says  that  if   a  witness  claims  the                                                                    
     privilege not  to incriminate  himself, it  would force                                                                    
     him to divulge to the  prosecuting attorney back in the                                                                    
     judge's chambers.   You've got  no privilege if  you do                                                                    
     that.   ...  You've   been   forced   to  divulge   the                                                                    
     information  that's  incriminatory to  the  prosecuting                                                                    
     authority. ...  It eviscerates the Fifth  Amendment; it                                                                    
     guts  it.    And  I  don't  think  it  would  withstand                                                                    
     constitutional   muster,  and   I   don't  think   this                                                                    
     committee or the  legislature wants to go  on record as                                                                    
     saying ...:   "The  Fifth Amendment is  not important";                                                                    
     "We don't  believe this bedrock,  fundamental principle                                                                    
     of our system serves a  purpose anymore"; or, "We don't                                                                    
     believe in it." ...                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK concluded:                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     This bill is really riddled  with problems, and I would                                                                    
     love  the opportunity  to work  with the  committee and                                                                    
     follow  up with  some comments,  more specifically,  on                                                                    
     each section.   But I will end my  testimony there, and                                                                    
     thank   the  committee   ...  for   allowing  me   this                                                                    
     opportunity to testify.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE asked Mr. Fink to comment on Sections 14 and 26.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK offered to submit written comments on those sections                                                                   
after he'd had a chance to review them.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-55, SIDE B                                                                                                            
Number 2380                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked Mr. Fink to explain to the committee                                                                  
the current rule pertaining to allowing evidence of a prior                                                                     
conviction.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK said:                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Well  currently, prior  bad acts  that are  relevant in                                                                    
     some way may be  admissible; for instance, where you've                                                                    
     got  domestic violence  or sexual  assault.   The rules                                                                    
     allow [it],  in certain  circumstances, if a  prior bad                                                                    
     act  is  similar  in that  you've  got  a  similar-type                                                                    
     victim [and] you have  similar-type behavior; those are                                                                    
     specific  exceptions the  legislature has  made against                                                                    
     the general  rule that  they can't  come in  because of                                                                    
     the prejudice.   Also,  prior bad acts  can come  in if                                                                    
     they're going to show motive,  a scheme or design, [or]                                                                    
     opportunity.   [There  are] very  limited and  specific                                                                    
     exceptions to  the general  prohibition that  prior bad                                                                    
     acts  may  not  come  in  because  of  the  prejudicial                                                                    
     effect.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     Here,  this section  is specifically  ... dealing  with                                                                    
     the [DWI,  driving while intoxicated]. ...  Because ...                                                                    
     a  felony  DWI requires  a  certain  number of  priors,                                                                    
     right now ...  that information is kept  from the jury,                                                                    
     and the jury  determines the guilt or  the innocence of                                                                    
     the person in the first  phase of the trial without any                                                                    
     reference or  knowledge of these past  offenses.  Then,                                                                    
     if the jury  convicts ..., [in] the second  part of the                                                                    
     trial  the  jury would  then  be  made aware  of  those                                                                    
     convictions - the  state would have to prove  them up -                                                                    
     and  that would  establish  the  felonious nature,  for                                                                    
     instance, of a third DWI in five years.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     But it is specifically prevented  from coming in at the                                                                    
     first  part  because  it's common  knowledge  and  it's                                                                    
     common experience  [that] the jury will  likely convict                                                                    
     based  on  those prior  acts  rather  than the  current                                                                    
     behavior.   So there is  a strong tradition  and strong                                                                    
     public policy   - judicial  policy - against  the prior                                                                    
     bad acts, and very  limited exceptions have been carved                                                                    
     out.    This  Section  7  just  blows  a  hole  through                                                                    
     someone's ability to get a fair trial on a felony DWI.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS,  referring to the comment  that the state                                                               
has to  prove the  prior convictions  in the  second part  of the                                                               
trial, asked how that occurs.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. FINK said  that oftentimes the defense  will simply stipulate                                                               
- agree  - that the prior  convictions occurred.  If  the defense                                                               
does  not  do  so,  however,   the  prosecutor  can  produce  the                                                               
conviction, either  through a transfer  of court records,  if the                                                               
prior conviction occurred  in Alaska, or via a  certified copy of                                                               
the  judgment, if  the  conviction  occurred out  of  state.   He                                                               
remarked that the  second portion of such a trial  is generally a                                                               
quick process.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 2247                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JAMES H. McCOMAS,  Attorney at Law (of  counsel), Friedman, Rubin                                                               
& White,  noted that he  has been  a criminal defense  lawyer for                                                               
the last 25 years, the last 15 of  which have been in Alaska.  He                                                               
said:                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     I want to  commend the committee for  making short work                                                                    
     of the  "heat of  passion" and  self-defense provisions                                                                    
     [Sections  1-5].   But  I  think  you should  also  ask                                                                    
     yourself this question:  Why  in the world was anything                                                                    
     so radical  ever even proposed in  the governor's bill?                                                                    
     I  mean these  were  massive changes  that are  utterly                                                                    
     indefensible.   And  the  purported  factual basis  for                                                                    
     them consisted  of anecdotes apparently collected  by a                                                                    
     Mr. Novak.  When you  start examining the cases that he                                                                    
     actually identifies,  and I  understand that  there was                                                                    
     some discussion of this before,  you find out that they                                                                    
     are very different, in fact.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     And  that concerns  me about  the entire  bill.   And I                                                                    
     join in  Mr. Fink's recommendation; I  don't think that                                                                    
     anything in this bill should move  on this year.  And I                                                                    
     think what the committee really  should do is go out of                                                                    
     its way to  solicit even more input on  the sections of                                                                    
     the bill  that it's  not going  to summarily,  or after                                                                    
     the consideration already given, delete.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. McCOMAS then spoke to specific provisions of HB 244:                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     The  provision  [Section  26]  that  would  permit,  in                                                                    
     domestic  violence  cases,  hearsay  statements  to  be                                                                    
     introduced beyond  what the  rules of  evidence provide                                                                    
     now  is  extremely  unwise,   number  one,  and  almost                                                                    
     certainly unconstitutional.  One  has to start with the                                                                    
     question:  Why  DV [domestic violence] cases?   Why not                                                                    
     sexual assault or  sexual abuse cases?   Why not murder                                                                    
     cases?   Why  not  serious armed  robberies?   Why  not                                                                    
     attempted murders?                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
[Tape 03-55, Side B, contains nothing further.]                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-56, SIDE A                                                                                                            
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. McCOMAS went on to say:                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     What you  have to  understand, of  course, is  that the                                                                    
     exceptions to  the hearsay rule,  all of them,  are not                                                                    
     case-type  specific.   Instead, all  the exceptions  to                                                                    
     [the] hearsay rule  are based on the  fact that there's                                                                    
     some  reliability  that  inheres   or  is  attached  by                                                                    
     circumstance:   ...  business records,  public records,                                                                    
     excited  utterances because  they  happen  so close  in                                                                    
     time when people are under  the stress of the event and                                                                    
     they  don't have  a  moment to  think  about and  style                                                                    
     their answers.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     That  concept,  which  is fundamental  to  the  hearsay                                                                    
     rule,  is   completely  voided   here  and   creates  a                                                                    
     situation  where  an  individual can  make  statements,                                                                    
     very  deliberate  statements,  thought-out  statements,                                                                    
     even   collusive  statements,   and   then  have   them                                                                    
     admitted.      And   remarkably  enough,   under   this                                                                    
     legislation  as I  understand  it,  the person  doesn't                                                                    
     even have  to testify  at trial.   So  that prosecutors                                                                    
     could decide,  "Well, you know, this  complainant's not                                                                    
     going to  make a  good impression  [on] the  jury," or,                                                                    
     "She's  going to  have to  answer  some hard  questions                                                                    
     about [what]  she was doing  with the  defendant before                                                                    
     she  says this  allegedly  occurred; our  case will  be                                                                    
     better off if we just  use the tapes of her interviews,                                                                    
     or if  we just call  the neighbors and friends  to whom                                                                    
     she told  her side  of the  story."   And I  just don't                                                                    
     see,  frankly,  any  court   permitting  that  kind  of                                                                    
     obviously  unreliable hearsay  evidence to  be admitted                                                                    
     given  the  confrontation  clauses  of  the  state  and                                                                    
     federal constitutions.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0193                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. McCOMAS continued:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     Section  12,  I  guess,  is the  one  that  deals  with                                                                    
     immunity.   This is  plainly unconstitutional,  but ...                                                                    
     I'm not  even sure if I  should point this out  or not,                                                                    
     or just let it get passed.  ... If what happens is that                                                                    
     the court  compels the defense attorney  to proffer, in                                                                    
     the presence  of the prosecutor, what  the client would                                                                    
     say  if immunized,  then either  there's  been a  gross                                                                    
     violation  of   ...  [state  and   federal  privileges]                                                                    
     against self-incrimination  - having the lawyer  say it                                                                    
     instead of  the client is  constitutionally meaningless                                                                    
     because the attorney is the  agent of the client and is                                                                    
     relating what the  client would say - ... or  it may be                                                                    
     that  the  effect  of that  would  be,  judicially,  to                                                                    
     trigger  transactional immunity  for  the person  whose                                                                    
     lawyer  was  forced  to  make  the  disclosure  to  the                                                                    
     prosecution as to all  transactions that were revealed,                                                                    
     and  that that  would be  the  only way  of curing  the                                                                    
     compelled disclosure that had  been required.  This one                                                                    
     doesn't pass, frankly,  first-year law school analysis,                                                                    
     and it's remarkable  to me that something  like this is                                                                    
     actually in the bill.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     There's  a requirement  [Section 21]  that the  defense                                                                    
     give notice of  defenses.  That already  exists.  There                                                                    
     is a suggestion  that the notice of  defenses should be                                                                    
     earlier  than  it  is  now,   and  I  don't  think  the                                                                    
     difference between 7  days and 21 days or  even 30 days                                                                    
     is a big deal.  I  don't think it's necessary to expand                                                                    
     the time  frame, but  I don't think  that that's  a big                                                                    
     deal.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE  noted  that testimony  during  the  bill's  prior                                                               
hearing indicated that a victim's  family and potential witnesses                                                               
had taken time off  from work and flown up to  Alaska, only to be                                                               
told that a  trial was not going to take  place as scheduled, and                                                               
that therefore [the current statutory notice provision] has been                                                                
abused.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 0354                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. McCOMAS replied:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Well, I understand, but you  see, it's not like there's                                                                    
     a  problem.   What you  heard was,  I think,  one chief                                                                    
     anecdote.     And  it's   really  bad   public  policy,                                                                    
     especially since  there's almost  nobody left  to speak                                                                    
     on   behalf  of   the  criminally   accused;  I   mean,                                                                    
     politically, there  isn't a  political party  that will                                                                    
     even take these positions regularly  as a matter of the                                                                    
     internal principles  of their party.   But if  we start                                                                    
     legislating now, not  on real need but on  the basis of                                                                    
     individual  case anecdote  -- ...  and that's  what the                                                                    
     prosecution seeks.  I mean  what they want is for every                                                                    
     rule to  be fixed in  a way so  that they never  lose a                                                                    
     case, and [so] that  there's never another acquittal in                                                                    
     the state of Alaska.  I  don't think that's the kind of                                                                    
     system you want to have.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     It's not  just their side  that's prejudiced.   I mean,                                                                    
     the  big joke  about this  provision is,  I have  never                                                                    
     tried,  ... in  15 years  in  Alaska, a  murder or  any                                                                    
     other serious case in which  there hasn't been at least                                                                    
     one  discovery  violation  by the  prosecution  and  we                                                                    
     didn't  get, until  during  trial,  material we  should                                                                    
     have  had months  or years  ago.   And  yet there's  no                                                                    
     provision in this  bill to suddenly ...  have some kind                                                                    
     of drastic  result in the  event the  prosecution fails                                                                    
     in ...  its burden.   Instead, the presumption  is that                                                                    
     ... there's a continuance.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     The other  thing I have  to tell  you is that  even the                                                                    
     U.S. Supreme Court isn't going  tolerate a statute that                                                                    
     creates an  automatic preclusion sanction.  ... They've                                                                    
     already made that clear in  their cases that have dealt                                                                    
     with  alibi  notice,  that you  cannot,  automatically,                                                                    
     preclude all  alibi witnesses simply because  a rule of                                                                    
     7 days or  30 days has been violated.   There has to be                                                                    
     a  case-specific assessment  of whether  there actually                                                                    
     was any prejudice and, if  there was any prejudice, ...                                                                    
     then what.   So I don't really see the  need there, and                                                                    
     I know that the sanction is unconstitutional.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0495                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. McCOMAS then turned to Section 7 and said:                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     I would say  it would be a very rare  case in which the                                                                    
     prior crimes were a contested  issue.  And I think that                                                                    
     in  the vast  majority of  these cases  ... -  assuming                                                                    
     that the  prompt discovery is given  by the prosecution                                                                    
     of  certified copies  of prior  convictions -  that the                                                                    
     so-called second phase of the  trial is either going to                                                                    
     be  stipulations  by  the   defense  that  those  prior                                                                    
     convictions  exist or  20 minutes'  worth of  testimony                                                                    
     that,   yes,  these   are   certified   copies  and   a                                                                    
     perfunctory  5 minutes  of the  same jury  finding that                                                                    
     that  meets  the  standard.    The  suggestion  to  the                                                                    
     committee,  which I  understand  was  that there  would                                                                    
     have to be two trials  and two separate juries, is just                                                                    
     totally fabricated.  That wouldn't  be the situation at                                                                    
     all.   That doesn't happen  now, and there's  no reason                                                                    
     for it to [happen].                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MR. McCOMAS concluded his testimony  by saying that he'd be happy                                                               
to answer any questions.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  mentioned that  it is her  intention to  not alter                                                               
the provisions regarding consecutive sentencing.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0635                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
BARBARA   BRINK,   Director,   Public  Defender   Agency   (PDA),                                                               
Department of Administration, after  mentioning that she has been                                                               
a public defender  in Alaska for 21 years, noted  that her deputy                                                               
director, Linda Wilson, prepared  written testimony that has been                                                               
provided to the committee.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE assured  Ms. Brink  that she  needn't address  the                                                               
self-defense provisions of the bill.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK turned, then, to Section 6:                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
     Section 6 has  to do with an accused  person's right to                                                                    
     consult  with  counsel  when they  are  at  the  police                                                                    
     station.   And  this amendment  that's proposed  in the                                                                    
     bill would  limit the rights  of an accused  to consult                                                                    
     with   the   attorney,   and  I   haven't   heard   any                                                                    
     explanation, or  belief, or  rationale to  justify this                                                                    
     provision.  It  just seems to be a  misguided effort to                                                                    
     keep a  prisoner without counsel  as long  as possible,                                                                    
     although, of course,  by the mere fact  that the person                                                                    
     is  in custody  and accused  of a  crime, his  right to                                                                    
     counsel ... [begins] immediately.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     What  happens, usually,  when a  person is  arrested is                                                                    
     that if the family and  friends of that person have any                                                                    
     financial  wherewithal  at  their disposal,  they  will                                                                    
     make  arrangements for  an attorney  to represent  that                                                                    
     person,  and then  that attorney  will go  down to  the                                                                    
     police  station.   The practical  effect  is that  with                                                                    
     this  amendment, only  if the  person in  custody knows                                                                    
     that a person has been  retained to represent them will                                                                    
     they make the specific request  to ask to speak to that                                                                    
     person,  and  because that  person  is  now being  held                                                                    
     incommunicado and doesn't have  the ability to speak to                                                                    
     their  family and  friends, they're  not going  to know                                                                    
     that.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     So,  in the  first case,  I don't  see what  problem is                                                                    
     trying  to  be  fixed  with  this  [provision  of  the]                                                                    
     legislation.  And  what you also have  to understand is                                                                    
     that  many accused  people, people  who are  in custody                                                                    
     and  being interrogated,  have  mental disabilities  or                                                                    
     they're young  and inexperienced or, frankly,  not very                                                                    
     smart.  And  we all know that the police  have at their                                                                    
     disposal   a  wide   variety   of   means  to   extract                                                                    
     confessions  or statements  from  people including  the                                                                    
     fact that  it is  perfectly okay for  police to  lie to                                                                    
     people to get them to make statements.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     And,  as Mr.  Fink pointed  out,  we have  a very  real                                                                    
     problem   with  people   who  are   held  incommunicado                                                                    
     confessing to  things that they  haven't done  or being                                                                    
     mislead, and so an arrested  person really ought to get                                                                    
     the benefit  of the lawyer  that his or her  loved ones                                                                    
     have secured.   So we  don't agree with Section  6, and                                                                    
     we don't  really see what  problem is attempting  to be                                                                    
     fixed.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 0799                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK turned to Section 7:                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     Section 7 of  the bill [is] trying to  make evidence of                                                                    
     prior convictions  admissible in  a case where  it's an                                                                    
     element  of the  offense.  ... There's  been  a lot  of                                                                    
     testimony by  Mr. Fink and  Mr. McComas about that.   I                                                                    
     have  to   agree  with  everything  they've   said  and                                                                    
     particularly  Mr.  McComas's  statement that  it  isn't                                                                    
     that we  hold two  trials, now,  in order  to determine                                                                    
     this.   This instance comes  up in two types  of cases:                                                                    
     DWI  cases where  what type  of charge  depends on  how                                                                    
     many prior  DWIs you have, and  shoplifting cases where                                                                    
     there is  a felony  shoplifting provision  that depends                                                                    
     entirely  on how  many prior  shoplifting [convictions]                                                                    
     you have as well.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     And,  as both  the  previous  witnesses testified,  you                                                                    
     eviscerate due process when you  try to get convictions                                                                    
     based on what someone's done  in the past as opposed to                                                                    
     good,  hard  evidence  of  whether  they've  done  this                                                                    
     particular  crime.    And  a  person  doesn't  get  two                                                                    
     separate trials;  it's just a  simple "order  of proof"                                                                    
     situation.   If  a person  is found  to have  committed                                                                    
     this new  offense, whether  it's a  DWI or  a shoplift,                                                                    
     and they  still wish  to contest  whether or  not these                                                                    
     prior convictions are valid, then  the same jury in the                                                                    
     same courtroom during the same  course of the afternoon                                                                    
     is  given  information  about  the  prior  convictions.                                                                    
     And,  as Mr.  Fink  pointed out,  it's  pretty easy  to                                                                    
     prove a prior conviction.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     But   that  brings   up  the   second   part  of   this                                                                    
     [provision], ...  which changes the burden  of proof to                                                                    
     challenge the validity of the  prior conviction.  As it                                                                    
     currently  stands, the  prosecutor  is  able to  easily                                                                    
     prove prior  convictions.   And why  is that?   Because                                                                    
     they  have access  to  information  nationwide.   There                                                                    
     [are] some national  law enforcement organizations that                                                                    
     have  computerized   databank  systems  that   are  not                                                                    
     accessible to  the defendant,  that are  not accessible                                                                    
     to  defense  counsel,  but  ...  [that]  certainly  are                                                                    
     accessible   to  any   prosecutor  to   find  a   prior                                                                    
     conviction in  any location in  any other state,  be it                                                                    
     federal or state.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 0901                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK continued:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     So shifting the  burden of proof, which  Sections 7 and                                                                    
     15 do,  ... really imposes  ... a hardship on  a person                                                                    
     who's accused of a crime.   The defense, the defendant,                                                                    
     the accused  person, doesn't have  access to  that kind                                                                    
     of  information,  that kind  of  ability  to find  out,                                                                    
     nationwide, what's out there  and what isn't out there.                                                                    
     And secondly,  the bill changes what  you can challenge                                                                    
     a  prior  conviction  for.     It  says  you  can  only                                                                    
     challenge  a prior  conviction if  a person  was denied                                                                    
     the right to  counsel or they were denied  the right to                                                                    
     a jury trial.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     ...  But  there   are  many,  many  ways   in  which  a                                                                    
     conviction can  be unconstitutional.  What  if the jury                                                                    
     was instructed  improperly on what  the law was?   What                                                                    
     if  a  client who  plead  to  a crime  wasn't  informed                                                                    
     properly  of what  the elements  of  the offense  were?                                                                    
     What  if  a  person  was convicted  by  using  perjured                                                                    
     testimony?  I really don't think  we want to be a state                                                                    
     that says none of those  things matter and all of those                                                                    
     things are  going to  be valid  prior convictions.   So                                                                    
     that's why I  have problems with those  sections of the                                                                    
     bill.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SAMUELS, turning  back  to Section  6, asked  Ms.                                                               
Brink if  she is suggesting that  once someone has been  read the                                                               
Miranda warning, just because that  person is "young and stupid,"                                                               
he/she should have  extra protection and not  be questioned until                                                               
a lawyer is present.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK replied:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Well, frankly,  ... if  a person  is [read  the Miranda                                                                    
     warning], then they're  on notice that if  they want to                                                                    
     have an  attorney, they can  have one right then.   And                                                                    
     in  fact,  if  they  want  to  have  an  attorney,  all                                                                    
     questioning must stop until  that attorney is provided.                                                                    
     What we're  talking about is a  situation where there's                                                                    
     an  attorney already  there, waiting  to speak  to that                                                                    
     person, that  has been retained, in  fact, to represent                                                                    
     that person,  [but] the  person who's  being questioned                                                                    
     doesn't know that, and so they can't ...                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS interjected to say, "But they've been                                                                    
[given the Miranda warning] and they've turned it down."                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1035                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK countered:  "Well, they haven't turned it down.  What                                                                 
if they have said, 'Well, I can't hire one' or 'I don't have the                                                                
money on me right now.'"                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS remarked:  "Then one would be provided by                                                                
the state.  Isn't that part of the [Miranda] warning?"                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK replied:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Well, it  doesn't really  say one  will be  provided by                                                                    
     the  state;  it  says  one  will  be  provided  to  you                                                                    
     immediately.   But  here's the  situation:   What about                                                                    
     the middleclass  people, who know  that they  might not                                                                    
     qualify  for  appointed  counsel, but  lo  and  behold,                                                                    
     their  family   has  counsel   already  there   at  the                                                                    
     jailhouse  door wanting  to talk  to them.   Should  we                                                                    
     treat  those people  differently than  poor people?   A                                                                    
     poor person could  say, "Yes, appoint one to  me."  But                                                                    
     for  that  person  who knows  they  won't  qualify  for                                                                    
     appointed  counsel, should  we treat  them differently,                                                                    
     and not  give them access  to the lawyer  that's ready,                                                                    
     willing, and waiting to help them ...                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS interjected to say:                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     I  assume  if   I  say  whether  I'm   rich,  poor,  or                                                                    
     indifferent - and your original  point was most of them                                                                    
     are young and  stupid - so I'm assuming,  then, that if                                                                    
     I want  a lawyer, that  ... the  rest of it's  going to                                                                    
     get  sorted  out, and  if  my  family  has one  for  me                                                                    
     outside, then the process stops.   I think the point of                                                                    
     the bill was that if a  lawyer or a family member shows                                                                    
     up,  that  they  don't  have  a right  to  go  talk  to                                                                    
     somebody that's  been [given  the Miranda  warning] and                                                                    
     turned it down.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1078                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK replied:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     I think a  lot of people don't  affirmatively turn down                                                                    
     a lawyer, because, frankly, it  isn't that clear to you                                                                    
     when  a lawyer  will be  appointed to  you.   A lot  of                                                                    
     times  during questioning,  a  person  will say,  "When                                                                    
     will I  get a lawyer?"  and the police,  rightfully so,                                                                    
     will say,  "Well, we  can't get one  in here  now; when                                                                    
     you go  to court, when  you get arraigned,  that's when                                                                    
     one will  be appointed to you."   And so the  person in                                                                    
     the  police  station is  left  feeling  like, "Well,  I                                                                    
     should talk to the police  because I want to clear this                                                                    
     up, and  if I decide to  wait for a lawyer,  the police                                                                    
     won't talk to me."                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     So, I appreciate that you're  feeling like these people                                                                    
     are  turning down  a  lawyer, but  in  fact, it's  most                                                                    
     often based  on confusion of  how soon a lawyer  can be                                                                    
     provided  for   them  and   their  desire,   truly,  to                                                                    
     cooperate  with  the police  and  tell  them what  they                                                                    
     might know  about the situation.   So it's not  so much                                                                    
     an   affirmative  turning   down   of   counsel  as   a                                                                    
     misunderstanding  of how  the  process  works, and  how                                                                    
     they could access an attorney quickly.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GARA posed  a situation  in which  the person  in                                                               
custody  has not  yet  asked  for an  attorney  and  there is  no                                                               
attorney present  at the  police station.   He asked  whether the                                                               
police are currently precluded from talking to that person.                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK said  that under that scenario, the police  can talk to                                                               
the  person.   In response  to another  question, she  said:   "I                                                               
don't think it's  so much [that] we're saying ...  we're going to                                                               
prohibit  the police  from talking  to  him, but  we're going  to                                                               
allow that prisoner  to talk to the attorney  who's there waiting                                                               
to talk to him."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK  turned next to Section  8 and said she  has no problem                                                               
with it because it seeks  to conform Alaska's immunity statute to                                                               
the  Alaska  State  Constitution  with regard  to  witnesses  who                                                               
testify  in  a criminal  proceeding  after  establishing, to  the                                                               
judge,  a  valid  privilege   against  self-incrimination.    She                                                               
relayed  that  the  1993 case,  State  v.  Gonzalez,  interpreted                                                             
Article  1,  Section  9,  of the  Alaska  State  Constitution  to                                                               
require  what  is  called full  transactional  immunity,  meaning                                                               
complete  immunity  from  prosecution any  time  the  prosecution                                                               
wants to force  a witness, with a legitimate  claim of privilege,                                                               
to testify.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 1307                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK  pointed out, however,  that Sections [9-12]  allow the                                                               
prosecutor to participate  in the proceedings in  which the court                                                               
determines  whether there  is a  valid claim  of privilege.   She                                                               
said that  she agrees with  previous witnesses on the  point that                                                               
one  cannot  preserve  a  privilege   while  "spilling"  all  the                                                               
information  to the  prosecutor.   She added  that those  are two                                                               
completely  inconsistent goals,  and allowing  the prosecutor  to                                                               
hear that proffered testimony  would violate statutory guarantees                                                               
against self-incrimination.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK  turned next to Section  13, 14, and 18-20,  which, she                                                               
posited,  propose to  amend the  sentencing  statutes to  require                                                               
consecutive  sentencing in  more circumstances  and to  eliminate                                                               
the  court's  ability  to determine  the  appropriate  amount  of                                                               
consecutive time for certain crimes.  She went on to say:                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     Frankly, I don't  think this legislation is  needed.  I                                                                    
     think  that the  trial  courts are  well  aware of  the                                                                    
     legislative preference  for consecutive  sentences, and                                                                    
     they  give that  preference  great  weight in  imposing                                                                    
     sentences.   They do impose consecutive  time when it's                                                                    
     required by  statute.  The  whole question  is, though,                                                                    
     because we  have presumptive sentencing, ...  if you're                                                                    
     in a car  accident and you get convicted  on two counts                                                                    
     of assault,  let's say,  in the  second degree,  if you                                                                    
     have  [a]  prior  felony,  each  one  of  those  counts                                                                    
     requires a four-year presumptive term.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     Now, it's kind of fortuitous  that because you have two                                                                    
     people in the car, all of  a sudden you have two counts                                                                    
     of assault and  all of a sudden your  sentence is going                                                                    
     to be eight years, whereas  if [a] person was fortunate                                                                    
     to only have  one person in the car,  they'd be looking                                                                    
     at a  four-year sentence.   The bottom line is  that it                                                                    
     isn't    always    appropriate,   in    every    single                                                                    
     circumstance,  to  impose  the entire  second  sentence                                                                    
     consecutively,  particularly  given  the fact  that  we                                                                    
     have  presumptive  sentencing  that can  range  10,  15                                                                    
     years,  and be  required.   So you're  going to  end up                                                                    
     increasing   a   lot   of  sentences,   doubling   some                                                                    
     sentences, and  having huge, serious fiscal  impacts on                                                                    
     the amount  of jail  time that  people are  required to                                                                    
     serve based on kind of fortuitous circumstances.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1417                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK continued:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Additionally,    it's   kind    of   inconsistent    to                                                                    
     automatically   impose   these  consecutive   jail-time                                                                    
     sentences  when  a  judge  is  supposed  to  take  into                                                                    
     account a  lot of different  things when he's  giving a                                                                    
     sentence,  including  the  seriousness of  the  present                                                                    
     offense,  what  the  prior   criminal  history  of  the                                                                    
     defendant  is, the  likelihood  of rehabilitation,  the                                                                    
     need to  combine them  to prevent  harm to  the public,                                                                    
     [and]  whether the  sentence  is  appropriate to  deter                                                                    
     this  person from  future crime  or deter  other people                                                                    
     from  future crime.   And  just imposing  a consecutive                                                                    
     sentence  in  toto doesn't  let  a  judge consider  all                                                                    
     those other circumstances.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     I mean, one of the  goals of presumptive sentencing was                                                                    
     to  try to  get uniformity  in sentencing,  and if  you                                                                    
     take away all the  judge's discretion and their ability                                                                    
     to  look  at  all  those  other  circumstances,  you're                                                                    
     actually   creating  less   uniformity  in   sentencing                                                                    
     because  it  will  depend on  fortuitous  circumstances                                                                    
     like  the  car  example.   Or  what  if  the  [district                                                                    
     attorney]  decides  to   indict  somebody  in  separate                                                                    
     indictments on  a number  of counts?   If all  of these                                                                    
     counts  are  in  the  same  indictment,  and  they  get                                                                    
     sentenced at  the same time,  then there's  a different                                                                    
     result  than if  each  count is  listed  in a  separate                                                                    
     indictment  and the  person  is  sentenced in  separate                                                                    
     sentencing  proceedings.   So, it  just doesn't  make a                                                                    
     whole lot  of sense  to me  in promoting  uniformity in                                                                    
     sentencing and  in allowing judges to  consider all the                                                                    
     things they need to consider in setting a sentence.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK then addressed Section 16:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Section  16  adds  a  mitigator  for  consideration  at                                                                    
     sentencing if a  person pleads within 30  days of being                                                                    
     arraigned on  the charge.   I certainly  understand the                                                                    
     public policy implications behind  that.  I don't think                                                                    
     it's a  bad idea, but I  have to say, 30  days after an                                                                    
     arraignment  it  would  be  unusually  rare  in  a  sex                                                                    
     offense for us to have  the discovery complete from the                                                                    
     prosecutor's office ....  And  you certainly don't want                                                                    
     a client,  a defendant,  a person  accused of  a crime,                                                                    
     pleading out to a sex  offense, which in most cases has                                                                    
     serious presumptive sentencing,  without having all the                                                                    
     information necessary in their case.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1511                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     I  don't  think the  state  has  the ability,  or  they                                                                    
     certainly aren't showing the  ability, at this time, to                                                                    
     get  discovery   to  us  in  a   timely  fashion;  it's                                                                    
     certainly not  within 30  days on  an arraignment  of a                                                                    
     felony.  So  it might be a better solution  to have the                                                                    
     triggering ...  be not a  specific period of  time, but                                                                    
     maybe before  an event, [for  example], 30  days before                                                                    
     trial,  or  before motions  are  filed,  or some  other                                                                    
     trigger that  would inspire the  case to  settle early,                                                                    
     because,  believe  me,  we also  have  an  interest  in                                                                    
     settling cases  early but still  [making] sure  we have                                                                    
     all the  information we need  to have before  we advise                                                                    
     somebody to plead.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA, turning back to the consecutive sentencing                                                                 
provisions, asked Ms. Brink to explain what she meant regarding                                                                 
multiple indictments.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK replied:                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     Well,  as I  understand it,  under proposed  subsection                                                                    
     (a) [of  Section 14], the  mere existence of  what they                                                                    
     call a  separate judgment  eliminates any  prospect for                                                                    
     concurrent sentencing.  So ...  let's say the person is                                                                    
     driving from Anchorage  to the Mat-Su valley  and is in                                                                    
     more  than one  accident,  and is  indicted  once by  a                                                                    
     Palmer grand  jury and indicted  in the  other instance                                                                    
     by  an   Anchorage  grand  jury;  these   are  separate                                                                    
     judgments.    And  I'm not  saying  this  could  happen                                                                    
     frequently.  But, frankly, I  have to tell you charging                                                                    
     practices throughout the state vary greatly.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     In  some jurisdictions  the  prosecutor  will charge  a                                                                    
     person's  cases all  in one  grand jury,  whether these                                                                    
     cases are related  or not.  In  other jurisdictions the                                                                    
     prosecutor will  charge them in separate  grand juries,                                                                    
     even if they  seem to be related.  And  so the question                                                                    
     of  whether   there  is  a  separate   judgment,  which                                                                    
     eliminates the prospect  for concurrent sentencing, ...                                                                    
     the odds  of that  happening can vary  widely depending                                                                    
     on where in the state you might be.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 1637                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA  asked for  a synopsis  of what  would happen                                                               
under the proposed  legislation for a different  example, that of                                                               
a bar  fight in  which the  defendant hits  three people.   Would                                                               
that result  in three consecutive  sentences and the  judge would                                                               
have no discretion to cap the sentence [and/or] make it                                                                         
partially concurrent?                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK responded:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     I think the reason this portion  of the bill is kind of                                                                    
     confusing   is,   it   tries  to   impose   consecutive                                                                    
     sentencing  in  a  wide variety  of  situations.    The                                                                    
     example  I   was  talking  about  was   under  proposed                                                                    
     subsection (a), where the mere  existence of a separate                                                                    
     judgment  can   eliminate  any  chance   of  concurrent                                                                    
     sentencing.   But as I  understand it, ... I  think the                                                                    
     earlier sections of the  bill require fully consecutive                                                                    
     sentences  for each  separate crime.   And  so I  think                                                                    
     under  your example,  yes,  ... it  would  be a  forced                                                                    
     consecutive sentence mandated.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     Right  now,  particularly  in cases  like  sex  offense                                                                    
     cases   or  sex   assault   cases,  where   consecutive                                                                    
     sentencing is required, it doesn't  have to be the full                                                                    
     amount  of the  consecutive sentence;  there has  to be                                                                    
     some consecutive time, but it's  left up to the court's                                                                    
     ... [discretion]  how much is consecutive  and how much                                                                    
     is concurrent.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
     ... What I see is,  ... [Section 14, subsection (c)(2)]                                                                    
     says that  if there are  two or more crimes  under [AS]                                                                    
     11.41,  which   is  your  bar-fight  scenario,   ...  a                                                                    
     consecutive  active  term   of  imprisonment  shall  be                                                                    
     imposed  for at  least the  mandatory minimum  term for                                                                    
     (indisc.)  terms.   So,  in  this  action, it  kind  of                                                                    
     depends  on  the degree  of  injury  suffered by  those                                                                    
     people in  your bar fight.   So  they have to  at least                                                                    
     get the  mandatory term  or two  years of  active jail,                                                                    
     depending on the degree of the assault. ...                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE remarked that she believes that "every life                                                                       
deserves the respective sentence that comes with it."                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 1784                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK, turning to Section 21-23, said:                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     Sections 21-23 concern notice  of defenses and experts,                                                                    
     and  require the  defense to  give  notice sooner  than                                                                    
     under  current law,  and also,  as  Mr. McComas  noted,                                                                    
     adopts   a  mandatory   serious   sanction  of   actual                                                                    
     preclusion  of  the  witnesses testimony  if  there  is                                                                    
     failure to timely  notify the prosecution.   And I have                                                                    
     to agree with Mr. McComas;  my staff, we're involved in                                                                    
     litigation, trials,  all the time,  and it is  the rare                                                                    
     case  where  ...  we're   not  surprised  with  witness                                                                    
     statements,  even   our  clients'   statements,  actual                                                                    
     physical  evidence,  [or]  lineups  in  the  middle  of                                                                    
     trial.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     And  the  case  law  is very  well  settled;  when  the                                                                    
     prosecutor  makes an  error like  that, either  through                                                                    
     negligence  or  inadvertence  or  inattention  or  even                                                                    
     deliberately, the  normal remedy  for a person  in that                                                                    
     situation is simply  to get a continuance,  and get the                                                                    
     opportunity to  deal with the  new information  and the                                                                    
     new evidence.   And why is that the rule?   Because the                                                                    
     court wants the  jury to get all the  information.  The                                                                    
     court wants the  evidence to be presented  to the jury,                                                                    
     because  a  jury can't  reach  a  fair decision  and  a                                                                    
     verdict if we're hiding stuff from them.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     And this  proposal, frankly, is  to hide  evidence from                                                                    
     the  jury if  either through  neglect or  "inadvertent"                                                                    
     ...  an attorney  didn't  get it  together  in time  or                                                                    
     because  they made  a mistake;  we would  then preclude                                                                    
     the jury from hearing vital evidence  in a case.  And I                                                                    
     have to  agree [with Mr.  McComas], I don't  think that                                                                    
     would  pass  constitutional  muster because  the  whole                                                                    
     point of  having a jury  trial is  for them to  get all                                                                    
     the  facts and  evidence  and  reach their  conclusions                                                                    
     about what happened and what the charge should be.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SAMUELS  mentioned the  case on Saint  Paul Island                                                               
pertaining  to  the murder  of  the  Coast Guard  commander,  and                                                               
remarked  that it  certainly wasn't  fair  to the  family of  the                                                               
victim  to have  to keep  flying  back and  forth from  Louisiana                                                               
because  the  trial   date  was  altered  at   the  last  minute,                                                               
purportedly because the defense changed it's strategy.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 1881                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK responded:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Well,  I'm a  little  familiar [with]  that Saint  Paul                                                                    
     [Island]  case  and, frankly,  I  have  to say  that  I                                                                    
     believe the error in that  situation was on the part of                                                                    
     the  prosecution.   I think  that there  was sufficient                                                                    
     notice, so that  travel could have been  avoided. ... I                                                                    
     appreciate  the   fact  that  it's  a   very  traumatic                                                                    
     experience to  go through, and  we try to give  as much                                                                    
     notice as  possible.   And in  that situation,  I think                                                                    
     the travel could have been avoided                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     But ...  I would  like to address  one other  area that                                                                    
     you bring  up.  In  fact, it is  the duty of  a defense                                                                    
     attorney to respond  to the case as it  proceeds and as                                                                    
     it develops, and sometimes, yes,  there will be changes                                                                    
     in  strategy or  changes in  witnesses.   But, frankly,                                                                    
     that's  part  of  trial.    A  prosecutor  changes  his                                                                    
     witnesses  and  strategy  as  he's  going  along,  too,                                                                    
     depending on  how the witness  testimony develops:   is                                                                    
     it necessary to  call this witness, should  we use this                                                                    
     other person,  can we  efficiently prosecute  this case                                                                    
     without  calling  that  person.   ...  Those  kinds  of                                                                    
     adjustments  are  made  all   the  time,  both  by  the                                                                    
     prosecution  and the  defense.   And I  appreciate that                                                                    
     everybody would like  to keep on a  timely schedule and                                                                    
     make sure that  there aren't any surprises,  and we try                                                                    
     to comply with the rules as best we can.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK, turning to Sections 24 and 25, said:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     Section  24 ...  [amends the  Alaska Rules  of Evidence                                                                    
     such  that] evidence  illegally obtained  by the  state                                                                    
     would be admissible  in a trial.   This overrules years                                                                    
     and  years  of jurisprudence.    It's  what people  who                                                                    
     engage   in   this    practice   regularly   call   the                                                                    
     exclusionary rule.  And it kind  of runs like this:  If                                                                    
     the police  or the  prosecution ...  violate somebody's                                                                    
     rights  [to]  be  free  from  unreasonable  search  and                                                                    
     seizure -  they search a  home without a  warrant, they                                                                    
     frisk  a person  without  probable  cause, they  invade                                                                    
     somebody's  car  with no  good  reason  - or  they  get                                                                    
     someone  to  confess  without advising  them  of  their                                                                    
     Miranda rights, that's all illegally taken evidence.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1992                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK continued:                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     And the rules  have developed in this  country over the                                                                    
     last 200 years that that  behavior will not be rewarded                                                                    
     by  allowing  the prosecution  and  the  police to  use                                                                    
     those pieces of evidence  against someone who's accused                                                                    
     of  a crime.    The exclusionary  rule  is designed  to                                                                    
     encourage police  to engage in lawful  practices and to                                                                    
     encourage  people's rights  to  be respected.   And  so                                                                    
     [this is] a huge change,  as Mr. Fink pointed out, once                                                                    
     again empowering  the government at the  expense of the                                                                    
     individual's rights.   It is a huge change to  all of a                                                                    
     sudden  now condone  illegal activity  on  the part  of                                                                    
     police and  prosecutors, and  say, "Well,  this illegal                                                                    
     evidence  can come  in, in  the  case in  chief, if  we                                                                    
     think the  defendant or the  accused is  not testifying                                                                    
     truthfully."  So,  it's a huge sea change,  and I don't                                                                    
     think it's a good idea.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     The second section, Section 25,  I'm sort of ambivalent                                                                    
     about.   That  amends [Alaska  Rules of  Evidence] Rule                                                                    
     609   to  increase   the  opportunity   to  use   prior                                                                    
     convictions of dishonesty from five  years from date of                                                                    
     the   conviction  [to]   within  five   years  of   the                                                                    
     unconditional discharge of the  conviction.  And so, if                                                                    
     you want to  expand that time, I would  just suggest to                                                                    
     you that that rule applies to both parties equally.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     If  you   want  to   impeach  somebody  with   a  prior                                                                    
     conviction and you're going to  extend the reach to ten                                                                    
     years  rather  than five  years,  you'll  have as  many                                                                    
     witnesses  testifying for  the defense  ... [who]  will                                                                    
     have impeachable  convictions show up in  their history                                                                    
     ... as you  would for the prosecutor.  It  just kind of                                                                    
     depends on  how much information  you want the  jury to                                                                    
     know.   Do you think  it's important that a  person was                                                                    
     convicted of a  crime this long ago?   Is that relevant                                                                    
     to  whether they're  telling the  truth  today or  not?                                                                    
     It's hard to say.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
Number 2048                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK, turning to Section 26, said:                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
     Section  26 ...  seeks to  amend the  [Alaska Rules  of                                                                    
     Evidence] to  provide another exception to  the hearsay                                                                    
     rule  to ...  [allow] statements  [made] by  an alleged                                                                    
     victim of  domestic violence within the  last 24 hours,                                                                    
     or [by]  any other witness.   Mr. McComas said  it very                                                                    
     well; most hearsay exceptions have  come about over the                                                                    
     years  because  it's  been  proven  that  the  evidence                                                                    
     that's hearsay  is really, generally kind  of reliable:                                                                    
     business records, those kinds of things.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     I  have  to  say  I  would find  ...  the  evidence  in                                                                    
     domestic violence  cases less reliable than  almost any                                                                    
     other type of  case.  If you are going  to carve out an                                                                    
     exception, this  would not be  the [type of case  to do                                                                    
     it  for].    Domestic violence  cases  are  universally                                                                    
     running high  with passion, emotion,  and bias.   And I                                                                    
     think it's  even more important in  those situations to                                                                    
     provide  the  actual witness  so  the  jury can  assess                                                                    
     whether or not that person's telling the truth ....                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked Ms. Brink to comment on Section 27.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MS. BRINK  said that  Section 27 relates  back to  the provisions                                                               
regarding expert testimony.  The  court rule [currently requires]                                                               
that  the state's  expert be  noticed 45  days before  trial, and                                                               
that the defense's  expert be noticed 30 days before  trial.  She                                                               
surmised  that Section  27 would  conform the  court rule  to the                                                               
"hard and  fast exclusionary rule"  proposed by  other provisions                                                               
of HB 244.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE  mentioned that there are  several amendments, some                                                               
of which propose to delete Sections 1-5, 9-12, 16, and 17.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2208                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DEAN  J.   GUANELI,  Chief  Assistant  Attorney   General,  Legal                                                               
Services  Section-Juneau, Criminal  Division,  Department of  Law                                                               
(DOL),  referring   to  the  suggestion  that   the  self-defense                                                               
provisions [Sections 1-5] be deleted,  said that these provisions                                                               
are the  law in  other states  and have been  upheld by  the U.S.                                                               
Supreme Court.   He offered  that these provisions are  in direct                                                               
response  to specific  situations,  which  occurred primarily  in                                                               
Anchorage  and purportedly  involved  gang  shootings, and  noted                                                               
that these  provisions provide an  exception for  self-defense in                                                               
one's  own home.   In  the  interest of  expediency, however,  he                                                               
relayed  that it  would be  acceptable to  the administration  if                                                               
Sections 2-5, which  relate to the defense  of self-defense, were                                                               
deleted; Section  1, on the  other hand,  relates to the  heat of                                                               
passion defense pertaining to first  or second degree murder, and                                                               
should therefore be retained.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GUANELI, in  support of  retaining  Section 1  of the  bill,                                                               
offered the following  about a case that was heard  in the Alaska                                                               
Supreme Court a number of years ago:                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
     Someone  ... had  paid some  money to  buy some  drugs.                                                                    
     The  runner  went to  the  house  and disappeared,  and                                                                    
     disappeared with the  drug money.  The  person who paid                                                                    
     to get the  drugs pounded on the door, broke  in, put a                                                                    
     gun to the drug dealer's  head, said, "Give me my money                                                                    
     back  or give  me the  drugs."   A struggle  ensued, he                                                                    
     ended up killing  the drug dealer, and  the defense was                                                                    
     heat  of  passion:    "I  was so  incensed,  I  was  so                                                                    
     enraged,  that  my  reason  overcame   me."    And  his                                                                    
     conviction  was   reversed  because  the   jury  wasn't                                                                    
     allowed to consider that heat of passion defense.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GUANELI opined  that one  ought have  the burden  of proving                                                               
that one was so enflamed, so  enraged, as to kill another person.                                                               
He likened  it to the defenses  of insanity and duress.   Heat of                                                               
passion   is  significantly   different  than   self-defense,  he                                                               
remarked, and urged the committee to retain Section 1.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI, on the issue of  whether to delete Sections 9-12 and                                                               
17,  the provisions  regarding immunity,  suggested that  "secret                                                               
hearings"  are occurring,  during which  information critical  to                                                               
the  prosecution  is  being  discussed.    He  opined  that  this                                                               
situation is unfair  to the state and to the  public.  In support                                                               
of  keeping  these  provisions  in   the  bill,  he  offered  the                                                               
following about a case that occurred in Juneau.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 03-56, SIDE B                                                                                                            
Number 2400                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     A couple of guys ..., over  a $50 or $60 debt involving                                                                    
     marijuana, ...  ended up killing  somebody.   They beat                                                                    
     him to  death.  It  turned out  that a witness  ... had                                                                    
     some  information  about  the   case,  and  he  got  an                                                                    
     attorney  and  basically  came to  us  and  said,  "I'd                                                                    
     really like to  help you, but I'm a  little bit worried                                                                    
     about my  own exposure."   And  so, after  pressing the                                                                    
     attorney a  little bit,  ... the  attorney writes  us a                                                                    
     letter and  says, "My good  faith belief about  what my                                                                    
     client fears is,  this guy came to him,  broke into his                                                                    
     house, said,  'I know  you've got a  gun, give  me your                                                                    
     gun,' ran out, did the  killing, and came back and gave                                                                    
     the client the gun back."   So the client was afraid he                                                                    
     was  going to  get accused  of ...  concealing evidence                                                                    
     ....                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI  said that the  forgoing is  an example of  a witness                                                               
that  wants to  cooperate  with the  prosecution.   He  remarked,                                                               
however,  that  in  the  aforementioned  "secret  hearings,"  the                                                               
witness  really doesn't  want to  cooperate with  the prosecution                                                               
and so  hides behind the Fifth  Amendment.  He mentioned  what he                                                               
called a general maxim that  says that the government is entitled                                                               
to every  person's evidence;  in other words,  every one  who has                                                               
information about  a case is  obligated to come forward  and give                                                               
testimony.  Hiding behind the Fifth  Amendment in such a way that                                                               
the prosecution is deprived of  the information it needs in order                                                               
to even know  whether to grant immunity  is really inappropriate,                                                               
he opined.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI  suggested that  all these  provisions do  is require                                                               
that  a   person's  attorney   provide  a   good-faith  statement                                                               
regarding what that  person is seeking immunity  for.  Currently,                                                               
the  prosecution  gets  no  information.   He  asserted  that  by                                                               
granting transactional  immunity, the prosecution faces  the risk                                                               
that the person  who is granted the immunity  will simply confess                                                               
to the  crime in an effort  to protect the defendant;  the result                                                               
of such  a situation is that  the person with the  immunity won't                                                               
be prosecuted  and the defendant  will be acquitted, and  so they                                                               
get away with the crime.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2207                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI assured the committee  that if the prosecution starts                                                               
prosecuting the  people that  cooperate, it  will soon  lose that                                                               
cooperation.  He said:                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
     If  we  believe  that   someone  is  only  peripherally                                                                    
     involved  in a  murder, and  if their  attorney's good-                                                                    
     faith  belief   is  that   there  is   only  peripheral                                                                    
     involvement,  then we  have no  interest in  (indisc. -                                                                    
     paper ripping);  we want their testimony,  we are going                                                                    
     to immunize that  person, and we're going  to get their                                                                    
     testimony.  If  it's something other than  that, then I                                                                    
     think that we might not  provide immunity for them, but                                                                    
     most  people  that  we  focus   on,  as  wanting  their                                                                    
     testimony, we have some  good-faith belief for thinking                                                                    
     that  they're not  a  principal actor.    But we  worry                                                                    
     about those  cases [in which someone  wants to] protect                                                                    
     the  defendant in  some way;  they may  be a  relative,                                                                    
     they may  be friend, they  may be an associate  in some                                                                    
     way, and  we're worried about  what would happen  if we                                                                    
     [give] immunity completely in the dark.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI, in response to  a question, explained the difference                                                               
between  transactional immunity  and "use  immunity":   Under use                                                               
immunity,  a  prosecutor  only  has  to  tell  the  witness  that                                                               
anything  he/she  says  will  not  later  be  used  to  prosecute                                                               
him/her.   Under transactional immunity,  a witness can  never be                                                               
prosecuted regarding  anything he/she  reveals, even if  there is                                                               
independent evidence  that he/she  committed a  particular crime.                                                               
He noted that  the federal government grants  use immunity, which                                                               
was  what  was  given  to  Oliver North,  and  that  the  federal                                                               
government bears  a heavy  burden of  proving that  any testimony                                                               
for which use  immunity was granted is not later  used in any way                                                               
to prosecute the person who was given the use immunity.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI reiterated  his belief that the provisions  of HB 244                                                               
require  only  that a  witness's  attorney  provide a  good-faith                                                               
statement  regarding what  the witness  is seeking  immunity for,                                                               
and offered  that the state  would still  have a heavy  burden of                                                               
showing that the information didn't  lead to a future prosecution                                                               
of the witness.   He posited that the  provisions being discussed                                                               
are  intended  to craft  a  procedure  that  is in  keeping  with                                                               
Alaska's   transactional   immunity   while  still   giving   the                                                               
prosecution a  minimal amount of  information by which to  form a                                                               
decision  regarding  whether  to  grant somebody  immunity.    In                                                               
response to another  question, he relayed that  most other states                                                               
grant use  immunity, but a  few other states  grant transactional                                                               
immunity.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GUANELI surmised  that if,  indeed, these  proposed sections                                                               
are  found to  be  unconstitutional -  as  predicted by  previous                                                               
testifiers  -  prosecutors  will  be   no  worse  off  than  they                                                               
currently are.   The  question is,  does the  legislature believe                                                               
that this is enough of a problem  that it ought to try to craft a                                                               
solution.  "We believe it is; ...  it happens to us all the time,                                                               
and we  believe that this is  a solution that ...  is designed to                                                               
work well and ... be constitutional," he added.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Number 1868                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE referred to the  language Section 8 is proposing to                                                               
delete:  "no  testimony or other information  compelled under the                                                               
order, or  information directly or  indirectly derived  from that                                                               
testimony or other  information, may be used  against the witness                                                               
in a  criminal case".   She asked why  not keep that  language in                                                               
and tinker with that language?                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI  explained that  the language  being removed  is from                                                               
the  federal law,  and that  Alaska's  court has  ruled, via  the                                                               
Gonzalez  case, that  the Alaska  State  Constitution provides  a                                                             
broader protection.   In other words, the court  has struck down,                                                               
as  unconstitutional, the  language being  deleted in  Section 8,                                                               
which is intended to reflect Alaska case law, he added.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA asked whether Section 8 adopts use immunity.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GUANELI said  it does  not, reiterating  that the  court has                                                               
ruled that use immunity is  not sufficient under the Alaska State                                                               
Constitution.    Section  8  crafts  a  procedure  by  which  the                                                               
prosecution  can  obtain needed  information  about  the type  of                                                               
offense that the witness wants  immunity for, so that immunity is                                                               
not being granted "in the dark."                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GARA  pointed  out, however,  that  the  language                                                               
Section 8 proposes to insert in  statute does not appear to be an                                                               
accurate statement of transactional immunity.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI  suggested that Representative Gara's  reading is not                                                               
correct; Section 8 is designed to  be from the Gonzalez case, and                                                             
simply reflects  what the [case]  law is in Alaska  regarding the                                                               
constitutional rule.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE  asked  why not  simply  insert  a  constitutional                                                               
amendment in the bill to provide  for use immunity.  Why create a                                                               
mechanism  that  is  untested,   particularly  in  light  of  the                                                               
Gonzalez case?   She suggested that rather  than changing several                                                             
statutes  to allow  the prosecution  to interject  itself in  the                                                               
judge's chambers,  the administration  should find a  simpler way                                                               
to achieve its  goal.  She opined that the  current provisions in                                                               
the bill infringe  on the judge's power,  discretion, and ability                                                               
to communicate in private with an individual.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1601                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI  offered that it  is the  administration's preference                                                               
to try to achieve its  goals through statute, rather than through                                                               
a constitutional  amendment.   He added:   "Once you  start going                                                               
down the road  of amending the constitution  to overturn judicial                                                               
decisions, there's  really no  end to that."   He  predicted that                                                               
there  are other  Fifth Amendment  rulings  and Fourth  Amendment                                                               
rulings by  Alaska's courts that  prosecutors "would love  to get                                                               
rid of."                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR  McGUIRE offered  her belief  that  on this  issue, if  the                                                               
administration is  determined to make such  a fundamental change,                                                               
a  constitutional  amendment  is  needed.    This  isn't  just  a                                                               
technical change; use immunity and  transaction immunity are "two                                                               
completely  different animals,"  she  remarked.   In addition,  a                                                               
constitutional  amendment will  allow  voters  an opportunity  to                                                               
weigh in on the issue.   Pondering how other states approach this                                                               
issue,  she asked  whether immunity  is  typically addressed  via                                                               
statute or via constitution.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  GUANELI  said that  with  respect  to  whether the  type  of                                                               
immunity granted  is use immunity  or transaction  immunity, that                                                               
is  probably a  matter of  judicial interpretation  of a  state's                                                               
constitution.    He  offered  to  provide,  at  the  bill's  next                                                               
hearing,   more    information   regarding   how    states   with                                                               
transactional immunity deal with the issue.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE said  she wants to know where  the concept proposed                                                               
in the bill originated.  "How do  we know this is going to work,"                                                               
and why go out  on a limb if it's going to  be thrown out anyway,                                                               
she asked,  and indicated that  she does not like  that approach.                                                               
Going to court  over this issue is a waste  of people's time, she                                                               
opined, particularly if there is  no precedent that such language                                                               
is going to work.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI  relayed that  the procedure  of accepting  a proffer                                                               
from  an  attorney  -  a  good-faith  statement  of  what  he/she                                                               
believes  the client  would  say  - does  have  precedent in  the                                                               
federal  government, and  is currently  used in  the granting  of                                                               
[federal] use immunity.   He suggested that  the proposed changes                                                               
are in  response to the  "secret hearings" that  judges currently                                                               
hold  in determining  whether  a witness  has  a valid  privilege                                                               
against self-incrimination.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA  asked that at  the bill's next  hearing, the                                                               
committee be provided with an excerpt from the Gonzalez case.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. GUANELI agreed to provide that information.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GARA  said that  his main problem  with HB  244 is                                                               
that it includes "six months' worth  of criminal law class."  The                                                               
concepts encompassed in  HB 244 are so varied and  so complex, he                                                               
remarked,  that he  is concerned  that he  will be  voting in  an                                                               
uninformed manner.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CHAIR McGUIRE indicated  that although she has  made a commitment                                                               
to move  the bill  out of  committee after  deleting some  of its                                                               
more controversial sections,  it might not be a bad  idea to work                                                               
on the bill over the interim.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
[HB 244 was held over.]                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1195                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
The House Judiciary Standing Committee was recessed at 5:58 p.m.                                                                
to a call of the chair.  [The meeting never was reconvened.]                                                                    

Document Name Date/Time Subjects